1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A video passed around by believers in the "chemtrail theory show contrails of planes flying right next to each other leaving contrails, then one plane reduces power to idle, stops making contrails, reduces altitude, powers back up again, and starts making contrails. You can tell it's reducing altitude by the angle of the trails.

    [​IMG]

    What happening here is refueling, followed by separation. Initially the planes are flying together, with similar power settings, so the exhausts are similar, and they both leave contrails. Then the lower plane (the AWACS/E3) separates, moving away by greatly decreasing power, so the contrail stops. Then when there's enough separation the power is restored, and the contrail starts again.

    This more recent video shows the same effect:


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    http://www.planespottingberlin.com/

    Expanation:

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  2. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Problem is, there is no proof of on/off chemtrail spraying in that vid. If that's as good as it gets you've got less than nothing.

    What that vid captured was a refueling operation and I can see by the silhouette that it is indeed an AWACS aircraft being refueled. After the refueling boom between the tanker and the AWACS is decoupled, the AWACS cuts its throttles back to idle and immediately begins to decelerate, descend, fall behind the tanker and change course. This maneuver is performed in order to provide adequate separation to avoid the wake turbulence/wing tip vortices from the tanker. Once the AWACS is at the proper separation and heading, the pilot cranks the engines to full throttle and begins to accelerate. The short time the AWACS was not making a contrail was while the engines were at idle during the separation maneuver after refueling.

    It's pretty obvious the AWACS begins to decelerate as soon as the contrails stop (engines at idle) and likewise just as obvious that the AWACS stops decelerating as soon as the contrails appear again (engines at full power).

    Besides, those are just short lived contrails anyways, they aren't even persistent.
     
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  3. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    What that vid captured was a refueling operation and I can see by the silhouette that it is indeed an AWACS aircraft being refueled. After the refueling boom between the tanker and the AWACS is decoupled, the AWACS cuts its throttles back to idle and immediately begins to decelerate, descend, fall behind the tanker and change course. This maneuver is performed in order to provide adequate separation to avoid the wake turbulence/wing tip vortices from the tanker. Once the AWACS is at the proper separation and heading, the pilot cranks the engines to full throttle and begins to accelerate. The short time the AWACS was not making a contrail was while the engines were at idle during the separation maneuver after refueling.

    It's pretty obvious the AWACS begins to decelerate as soon as the contrails stop (engines at idle) and likewise just as obvious that the AWACS stops decelerating as soon as the contrails appear again (engines at full power).

    Besides, those are just short lived contrails anyways, they aren't even persistent.[/QUOTE]

    I would agree with your analysis . . . seems rather clear this is a refueling of an AWACS aircraft . . . interesting . . . where was this captured????
     
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  4. FreiZeitGeist

    FreiZeitGeist Senior Member

    this video was made by Werner Altnickel, owner of chemtrail.de. A well-known chemtrail-activist in Germany. He is our "Carmicom" :-D

    http://www.chemtrail.de/?p=2074

    He lives in Oldenburg. There is much military activity around Ramstein Air Base the last days...
     
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  5. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

  6. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Hot diggity we agree on something. According to the caption in the bottom right corner at the beginning of the vid it was recorded above Edewecht Germany on Wednesday, 19 September 2012 at 1:05(?) in the afternoon.

    There's an E-3 Sentry AWACS wing at a NATO base in Geilenkirchen about 340km to the SSW of Edewecht.

    http://www.151arw.ang.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?id=123161542
     
  7. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    1) Seems this contrail induced cirrus cloud bank was very large and was calculated to have significant Radiative Forcing (RF) . . .
    2) The Atmospheric Soundings on the day before and during this event were optimal for persistent contrail formation (my observation) . . .
    3) The aircraft with the circular flight pattern was thought to be an AWACS aircraft . . .
    4) It seemed to be the trigger . . . though there were many other commercial filights over the UK the same day without similar results . . .
    5) At one time I felt this could be an example of testing of electronic countermeasures (somehow triggering the subsequent massive cirrus cloud bank while other traffic did not) by an AWACS . . . since that time I have found evidence of other unexplained persistent contrail induced cirrus cloud banks covering entire states and regions of the US . . .

     
  8. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    Ton of linear contrails consistant with commercial traffic in the photos that you posted.
     
  9. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    What exactly was unexplained?
     
  10. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    I mean it in the context that it is unknown how one aircraft can potentially initiate a cascade event of such size and duration . . . not that contrail induced cirrus is unexplained . . .

    I am aware . . . that is the issue . . . the researchers are assuming the one aircraft was potentially the trigger of the massive cloud bank and not the other aircraft . . .
     
  11. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    I think this is a really unusual video - 2 x 4-engined a/c contrailing together -



    Of course there's also all the usual stuff about us being poisoned, etc.....
     
  12. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I agree, it is a rare capture indeed. This instantly made it a "proof of chemtrails" despite the fact that these contrails did not persist but quickly dissipated without trace. I found it more interesting that AWACS briefly stopped contrailing when it dropped speed to pull away from the tanker and resumed it when it speeded up again. As both planes were at essentially the same altitude, it had to be the engine thing.
     
  13. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member



    Getting copied far and wide.

    Tankerenemy insists that they are at 6000ft.

    Of course he won't allow "shills" and "debunkers" to comment on his channel.
     
  14. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    Sample Comments:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  15. HappyMonday

    HappyMonday Moderator

    "on/off switch"

    The idea being then, during what I would assume is a fairly delicate maneuver, the crew's are also concerned with switching on and off their chemical spraying equipment?
     
  16. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member



    This one was put forward as on/off proof after I'd debunked that AWACS one on a FB page today. I figured that what was actually happening was the plane flying through a shadow from low cumulus or even mountains. It was filmed between 7-8 am in October in Florida. A quick google gave me sunrise at 7am in Florida at that time of year.
     
  17. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    No mountains. Definitely flying in and out of shadow. You can see the change in the way the sun reflects off of the sun and plane both.

    Very common weather pattern for us in the wet season is for there to be subsidence over land at night and convection over near-shore waters as the "land breeze" pushes off shore in the early morning hours. This reverses as the sun heats the land and the convection collapses over the water and fires over the land as the sea breeze pushes inland. The result of this is that it is not uncommon to have clear skies in the morning over land and towering cumulus over the water.

    Funny how they talk about how un-observant are the sheeple and shills but they fail to notice those thunderstorms that are off both coasts many many mornings from June through mid-October in most years. If you are in the middle of the state (as in Winter Park in this vid) you'll often be able to see the storms off in the distance over the Atlantic and Gulf in the morning. It should be obvious to the viewer that the trail did not even stop/start in this vid...
     
  18. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

  19. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  20. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    Here is a video in which the detachement maneuver was captured from the tanker's perspective (see end):

     
  21. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    OT: I live in a C-130 training area, and got the chance some years ago to witness an amazing sight, a USMC V-22 Osprey vertical takeoff plane doing air-to-air refueling with a C-130 at fairly low altitude over my home.
    Imagine your C-130 plane is dragging a fuel hose attached to your wingspan and a plane puts a 38 ft diameter windmills on either side of your hose.
    If he makes a mistake, your wing gets yanked off, and probably you both go down in a flaming holocaust!

     
  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I'd imagine it would detach like whenever someone drives off with the nozzle from a gas station. Still not a good idea though. Ospreys are pretty crazy.
     
  23. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Active Member

    Actually...IIRC...there's no real mechanical connection between the planes. It's more of just an O-ring connection. Side to side and up and down movements can damaged the probe or receiver though, I think they have some sort of shear device for that? Have to check with an AF friend, see if he remembers.

    Got to lay beside the operator on a KC-135 (though I could swear it was a C-141 until just a few minutes ago) as they did some practice refuelings with a flight of ANG F-4s over Nevada in the early 80's on a flight from CA to IL. Really quite a sight....wish I had a camera at the time.
     
  24. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    I pointed out to Clare Swinney what the video was and that I didn't know why she had posted it because the contrails didn't even persist..... got deleted. Can someone tell me why I bother?
     
  25. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    A sense of humour, and an at least making that particular woman realise that not everyone falls for her nonsense?
     
  26. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here's a nice image of a similar refueling over Germany:

    http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=35047&start=20#p225234

    [​IMG]



     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here's a related video:



    Four jets in formation. Two of them (Su30K) intermittently leave contrails, but not at the same time. The other two (Mirages) do not. So I suspect it different power variations?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
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  28. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    Mirage is a single-engine aircraft, whereas Su-30 is a twin-engine aircraft. Perhaps for the show it was just shifting the load to one of the engines, that turned on a trail. Unfortunately, it is not possible to see at this orientation and resolution whether the contrail was coming from both engines, or just one of them.
     
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Sounds plausible. But do fighter jets alternate single and dual engine usage?
     
  30. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Active Member

    Do they? Not normally. Can they...yep! They do it for air shows and in training. I've seen dual engine jets do things with one at idle just as a demo of capabilities.
     
  31. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    the French a/c are Mirage 2000B trainers (from this Garuda II description page) with SNEMCA M53 turbofans which only has a bypass ration of 0.36:1.

    The Su-30K's have AL-31FL's, wth a bypass ration of 0.59:1 - it might not look like much difference but it is over 60% higher than the Mirage ratio!!
     
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  32. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    I doubt they were going from two engines to one. The aircraft would have gone backwards at a great rate. To stay in formation like that you cannot make huge instantaneous power changes. It is an interesting one this video. The trails look to be contrails and not anything to do with smoke such as an aerobatic team would use. You would think that the two similar aircraft would contrail at the same time due to same engines and thrust settings. But they don't.
     
  33. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I did not suggest that there were huge instantaneous power changes, merely the redistribution of power between the two engines. It does not look like the fighter jets were flying full throttle, so they might have done it without breaking formation.

    Interestingly, I did not see many pictures of twin-engine fighter jet contrails on the web, perhaps, because they are disadvantageous for this type of aircraft and are normally avoided.
     
  34. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    There is no reason to do what you suggest. ANY power change would have registered as a change in relative position between the aircraft in the formation. Formation flight requires the lead aircraft to be very smooth in everything they do. Even a couple of percent change in thrust would be visible as the wingmen adjusted. I have done this in real life. When the contrails are evident in this video, there are no power changes happening.
     
  35. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Without much of a backround to measure against how do we know whether they are speeding up or slowing down, climbing or losing altitude - all quite smoothly together?
     
  36. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    Trailspotter was suggesting that they were going from using both engines to one. There is no need to do that in normal flight. You put two engines on a jet then you require two. You would never just fly around on one unless you lost an engine or were practicing an engine failure. Pulling back one engine and maintaining the same speed would require rapid thrust lever movements and would probably mean going into afterburner on the higher thrust engine. That would cause yaw and a loss of speed whilst juggling the thrust levers. Neither of those things are evident here.
     
  37. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    No, I was suggesting nothing dramatic as this, just more thrust on one engine than the other. Here is a photo of the same type SU-30MKI jet, doing such a thing:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/angad84/8085501496/in/set-72157631738040300/

    Contrail coming from one engine is notably thicker than contrail from the other engine.

    UPDATE: For comparison, here is a photo gallery that contains images of three contrailing SU-30MKI jets in formation:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/117990383296131038585/Su30MKI

    IMG_9163.JPG
     
  38. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

  39. KC-10FE

    KC-10FE Active Member

    It does seem like the Su-30's are using actual smoke much like the Thunderbirds use in their show, those are not actually contrails, much like in the French Mirage video. The smoke can be generated by a small oil line being sprayed into the engine, among other methods.

    http://www.webanswers.com/automobiles/aircraft/how-do-aerobatic-planes-make-coloured-smoke-f226c3

    [​IMG]


    I worked F15's for 6 years and I would have to ask an actual pilot if they ever went down to just one engine, which I doubt.
     
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  40. KC-10FE

    KC-10FE Active Member

    That is the correct method, where the receiver drops to the bottom of the air refueling "block" or altitude reserva

    This is what is NOT supposed to look like:)

     
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