Article in The Telegraph claims James Foley beheading video staged

Do you think James Foley was beheaded?
The video that Mick was talking about is the last one on that link. I have to be honest here, I've seen several American and EU captives having to forcefully give a speech for their captors, and James Foley didn't appear to be under stress, and even the way he was talking to his brother seemed oddly strange. For someone that is about to have their head cut off, why would they denounce America and blame America for their wrong doings in Iraq. At one point it even appeared as if he was smiling or smirking. Granted, having the sun in your eyes could've had the same effect from squinting. You're head is coming off anyway, and it's not like he chose a nice way to behead you (6" blade).. His farewell message just seems a bit strange to me.
 
The video that Mick was talking about is the last one on that link. I have to be honest here, I've seen several American and EU captives having to forcefully give a speech for their captors, and James Foley didn't appear to be under stress, and even the way he was talking to his brother seemed oddly strange. For someone that is about to have their head cut off, why would they denounce America and blame America for their wrong doings in Iraq. At one point it even appeared as if he was smiling or smirking. Granted, having the sun in your eyes could've had the same effect from squinting. You're head is coming off anyway, and it's not like he chose a nice way to behead you (6" blade).. His farewell message just seems a bit strange to me.
Be careful though.

The way you argue that is reminiscent of the conspiracy theorist discourse I have so come to recognize in myself.
  • Do not expect people under stress to behave the way you feel they should?
For me, the critical jump in the footage is most significant, given that I have witnessed beheadings before. There is no evidence!

This has not stopped many making judgments, nevertheless;).
 
I, for one, never doubted it, until I saw the footage:oops:.

But NOW, I am yelling "err...".
I have no desire to watch it - it's a claim, it's a pattern of behaviour consistent with their past actions, and I see no real reason to doubt it, this 'staged' information included.
It's not an event I feel needs me personally engaging in forensically investigating, it's just more evidence of the horror of political and religious fanaticism which is something I already don't have trouble accepting.
 
What's ELA?
'Error level analysis' - a way to detect digital manipulation. I'm not knowledgeable on the subject which is why I keep mentioning a split off thread. The video on liveleak seems compelling that the image of the beheaded was fake, proven using 'ELA'. I figured with the minds at this site, someone could shed some light on the subject.

Either it's true that the photo has been manipulated or it is not. And if it is, then we have to ask if it is relevant in any way...
 
I have no desire to watch it - it's a claim, it's a pattern of behaviour consistent with their past actions, and I see no real reason to doubt it, this 'staged' information included.
It's not an event I feel needs me personally engaging in forensically investigating, it's just more evidence of the horror of political and religious fanaticism which is something I already don't have trouble accepting.
And that's a problem! You're saying you really don't care; you're willing to accept whatever you've initially read, even if this situation is not what it seems.
 
Other people are welcome to change my opinion with their analysis - I have read what has been said and see no reason not to conclude he was beheaded.
 
Other people are welcome to change my opinion with their analysis - I have read what has been said and see no reason not to conclude he was beheaded.
Like @qed said:
qed said:
Consider a conspiracy theorist offering that video of evidence that someone was beheaded. We would all say "err..."
We have a staged video...why believe the stories behind it? It's like watching a Hollywood movie and believing something they claim happened at the end.
 
How is beheading someone in front of a camera not a staged video anyway? The whole thing was a production for a purpose. I don't see why that is startling information.
 
How is beheading someone in front of a camera not a staged video anyway? The whole thing was a production for a purpose. I don't see why that is startling information.
Let us avoid semantics. "Staged" is henceforth, in this thread, taken to mean "purposely false"?
 
And, the error level analysis of the photo? I linked to a video on liveleak earlier in this thread where someone claims ELA was done on that photo and have shown it to be manipulated. Meaning the video was staged, and the photo was faked as well. If that's true that should make anyone scratch their head about the situation.

I'll mention again, perhaps a split off thread to debunk that claim (if it is debunkable or at least explainable?).

There is no photo, there's a video. Photos are stills from the video. The original video shows no signs of digital fakery that I can see.
 
Make no mistake who created this horror.

This is a thread to discuss what happened, not the reasons why.

Let us avoid semantics. "Staged" is henceforth, in this thread, taken to mean "purposely false"?

And what does "false" mean? He's still alive? That's someone else? It's all CG? You don't get to dictate what word mean.

Instead of worrying about the meaning of words, just clearly say what can be verified.
 
And what does "false" mean? He's still alive? That's someone else? It's all CG? You don't get to dictate what word mean.

Instead of worrying about the meaning of words, just clearly say what can be verified.
Let us avoid semantics. "Staged" is henceforth, in this thread, taken to mean "purposely false"?
That was all I was trying to say. Sorry?

And what does "false" mean? He's still alive? That's someone else? It's all CG? You don't get to dictate what word mean.

All of the above. They appear equal to me?
 
Can we not establish that there is clearly a head at the end (of the footage) that is disjoint from the body, and that this head is the head of the person at the beginning?

Anyone doubt this?
 
What can be clearly verified?

That there is a video, it looks like Foley talking in it. It looks like a guy was sawing at his head. It then cuts to what looks like his body and severed head. The video all appears to be actual video with no still frames. There was some editing. The error level analysis is bunk as they are not looking at the actual frames of the video, and any similar photo gives the same result.
 
http://29a.ch/sandbox/2012/imageerrorlevelanalysis/
Error level analysis on an unedited image reveals areas of high discontinuity (edges and high contrast noise). It does not mean it's fake.

Taking a screen grab of a video, or exporting a frame as a jpeg will recompress it, and largely remove any tell-tale errors.
Using a 2D image to make a video will also remove errors as the image is recompressed for video.

And as noted above, the video is 3D. Not a pan on a 2D image.
 
Can we not establish that there is clearly a head at the end (of the footage) that is disjoint from the body, and that this head is the head of the person at the beginning?

Anyone doubt this?
It "appears" to be his head. This might seem gross, but does anyone know (in the medical profession) if it's even possible to sever a head using a 6" knife.
 
There is no photo, there's a video. Photos are stills from the video. The original video shows no signs of digital fakery that I can see.
But the ELA does not focus on the background. It focuses on the body, which has been covered up in this shot (for viewer discretion).
 
That there is a video, it looks like Foley talking in it. It looks like a guy was sawing at his head. It then cuts to what looks like his body and severed head. The video all appears to be actual video with no still frames. There was some editing. The error level analysis is bunk as they are not looking at the actual frames of the video, and any similar photo gives the same result.
I would like to mention that the US government has authenticated the video.
After analyzing the footage, National Security Council spokesperson Caitlin Hayden says, "We have reached the judgment that this video is authentic." http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...show-beheading-of-u-s-journalist-by-militants
Content from External Source
Whether that means the details within the video are authentic or that this is from ISIS is unclear.
 
That there is a video, it looks like Foley talking in it. It looks like a guy was sawing at his head. It then cuts to what looks like his body and severed head. The video all appears to be actual video with no still frames. There was some editing. The error level analysis is bunk as they are not looking at the actual frames of the video, and any similar photo gives the same result.
This is exactly the type of things you say not to do! You're speculating quite a bit.
 
James Foley didn't appear to be under stress, and even the way he was talking to his brother seemed oddly strange. For someone that is about to have their head cut off, why would they denounce America and blame America for their wrong doings in Iraq. At one point it even appeared as if he was smiling or smirking. Granted, having the sun in your eyes could've had the same effect from squinting. You're head is coming off anyway, and it's not like he chose a nice way to behead you (6" blade).. His farewell message just seems a bit strange to me.

I hesitate to comment on this thread given the semantic legacy of the word "staged" at MB...but...

I am not sure we should really conjecture about his state of mind. Do you know how Foley appeared when he wasnt under stress? His relatives clearly thought he was under a great deal of stress. He looks stressed to me. He is gritting his teeth and grimacing when not speaking and his words seemed hesitant and forced.

I, too, wondered why- if he thought they were going to kill him- why say the words? why not die resisting? But we do not see what is happening behind the camera- they could be threatening to kill the other guy (soklof?) if he doesn't say the words...

...and because I am a troublemaker...too bad this rescue mission the US "staged" was unsuccessful:

National Security
U.S. staged secret operation into Syria in failed bid to rescue Americans


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...3558a8-287d-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
 
This might seem gross, but does anyone know (in the medical profession) if it's even possible to sever a head using a 6" knife
I ask because I remembered reading the spinal cord is pretty durable and hard to cut through, not to mention back during the days of beheadings in the spread of religion it was known that axe-wielding executioners would often have to repeatedly hack, in order to decapitate a person's head.
 
I hesitate to comment on this thread given the semantic legacy of the word "staged" at MB...but...

I am not sure we should really conjecture about his state of mind. Do you know how Foley appeared when he wasnt under stress? His relatives clearly thought he was under a great deal of stress. He looks stressed to me. He is gritting his teeth and grimacing when not speaking and his words seemed hesitant and forced.

I, too, wondered why- if he thought they were going to kill him- why say the words? why not die resisting? But we do not see what is happening behind the camera- they could be threatening to kill the other guy (soklof?) if he doesn't say the words...

...and because I am a troublemaker...too bad this rescue mission the US "staged" was unsuccessful:

National Security
U.S. staged secret operation into Syria in failed bid to rescue Americans


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...3558a8-287d-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
Sounds like hoo-ha. It's so easy to say 'we attempted a rescue mission, but it was secret... We can't say anything about it.'
How do we know they really did? Their word? Where's the slightest shred of evidence they even attempted it? Could be more propaganda.
 
This is exactly the type of things you say not to do! You're speculating quite a bit.

Thats NOT conjecture or speculation.. when you're talking about a moving video its an apt description. How else would it be described? It felt? It sounded? It appeared? The ONLY evidence anyone has at this point, IS that video, so until a counter claim of evidence becomes available or the body comes home and can be confirmed 100% then its not speculation or conjecture. Its statement based on available evidence.. there's a HUGE difference Josh, and you know it.
 
Thats NOT conjecture or speculation.. when you're talking about a moving video its an apt description. How else would it be described? It felt? It sounded? It appeared? The ONLY evidence anyone has at this point, IS that video, so until a counter claim of evidence becomes available or the body comes home and can be confirmed 100% then its not speculation or conjecture. Its statement based on available facts.. there's a HUGE difference Josh, and you know it.
He's explaining a video that has been staged.
How come, when explaining what we know, that point doesn't come up?
Why keep skirting the issue? The video was not real. He was not really beheaded in that video...we don't know if he actually was.
 
Thats NOT conjecture or speculation.. when you're talking about a moving video its an apt description. How else would it be described? It felt? It sounded? It appeared?
OT: What if the video pertained to something else then, like a UFO for instance? Would the conjecture or speculation be warranted?
 
Sounds like hoo-ha. It's so easy to say 'we attempted a rescue mission, but it was secret... We can't say anything about it.'
How do we know they really did? Their word? Where's the slightest shred of evidence they even attempted it? Could be more propaganda.


could be. why believe anything anyone ever says.

Chances are someone in the militarily would call them out if it was completely fabricated. We certainly know the US carries out secret missions. You only tend to hear about them when they are very successful or very unsuccessful

but thats a different topic/thread.

But just because the newspaper chose the word "staged" to mean plan and carry out does not mean it was fake...

just sayin' :D
 
So then it couldn't have been manipulated? I'm not savvy on that whole subject.

It's theoretically possible to fake such a thing digitally, but it would be very hard to do undetectably, and probably easier to use a dummy head. The simplest explanation is that it is his severed head.

While it's not impossible it was something else, I see no good reason to doubt that it's his severed head.
 
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