1. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    I apologise if this has been covered and this is not a debunk rather a question.

    I don't get involved in the 9/11 thing outside of following 1 Facebook page and trying to leave amusing comments. However one thing has leaped out at me. There are often disdainful comments about a box knife been used as the main weapon in the hijacks. Now my vision of a box knife is like this

    Stanley-knife.

    In the UK we call them by the generic name of a "Stanley". Now that knife is a nasty bit of kit. Anyone that has watched UK news in the 70's and 80's may know the phrase "Stanley's gonna get ya" through the football hooligans (seen it, done that). For many it was the weapon of choice.

    However to the point, why is this knife seen as ineffectual and mostly benign? Why is it laughable that some guys threatened people with these tools?

    I have asked this on one other forum and the reply was, "Oh there was loads of military trained folk on board". My response was to highlight I am ex military and also a former psychiatric nurse and very conversant in control and restraint. However we possibly have a guy with a Stanley knife, either with a hostage or with people in close proximity, in an enclosed space which aircraft tend to be (I have sat in the back of a C130 on my own for 5 hours so that was not too enclosed).

    Who would be the first guy willing to get slashed or killed? We are not talking what we would think we would do but reality here. So why do truthers take the piss of the idea of Stanley knives?
     
  2. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
  3. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    mm. Thanks for that Soulfly. But even then I have to ask a few questions, Pushed up to a hostage why is that not threatening. In the past I have watched someone cut their wrists using a piece of a plastic button they had bitten in half. At the end of the day it does not have to be long and pointy to do harm.
     
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  4. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I agree, a quick google search for prison shanks will yield many a strange and unintimidating weapons that can kill.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=pri...riiss.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F13619754355;490;385
     
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  6. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Out of the 3 types of cutters shown in this thread the one from evidence has the only blade that extends farther than an inch or so. Creates a longer cutting edge.
     
  7. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    When I was on the local Grand Jury, one of the cases presented to us was of some teens that had gotten into a fight with box cutters. We saw the injuries from them. One girl had a scar that looked like someone had started a mastectomy on her. One of the boys looked liked someone had tried for hari kari move on him. Major injuries and in general folks respond to 'knives' with more fear than they do to guns. It is thought that comes from the fact that most folks know what a cut feels like and not what a gunshot feels like.

    They were a great choice for a hijacker, since it is small and holding one to a stewardesses throat or to a child's throat would be a great way to get others to follow your instructions.
     
  8. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    One out of the four flights was stopped, at least from hitting its intended target. Their argument could be at least 25% valid. Unless they are one of the ones that thinks flight 93 was shot down.
     
  9. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    By that time the passengers knew that most likely they would die that day. The fear of causing the death of someone else was moderated. I am sure that some folks resorted to prayers or their rosaries, but others acted to make sure that the plane was not used to kill even more folks.
     
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  10. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I'm sure many probably thought that. Had they been able to take control of the plane they could have possibly landed the plane still, it could be possible some thought about this as well and still went for it.
     
  11. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Fighting back gave them a tiny chance of surviving. Not gave them 0.

    One of the problems I saw when there was discussion of a neutron bomb, that would sicken/kill enemy soldiers but leave their equipment and buildings undamaged was that using that would create a lot of berserkers, folks that know that they will soon die, but they are not disabled. Can you say a suicide army?
     
  12. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I think that a lot of the reason for them to fight back was the knowledge they got from calls of what was happening with the other planes. Partially self preservation and partially wanting to not let another target be hit. If they got control of the cockpit though and it could have been possible to use auto pilot to land the plane.
     
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  13. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Essentially a razor blade in a handy usable casing. Not a pleasant edge to be at the end of.
     
  14. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    What are we debunking here?
    Box cutters are horrible to get cut with. It would probably take some knowledge of anatomy to actually be able to fatally wound someone coming at you trying to stop you though.
    I did stock for about 8 years at a large store and only had one serious cut (on my leg, with a brand new blade) and I'll tell you, it's no joke. I still have a scar, it sliced right through my pant leg and made a huge cut along my thigh. I didn't even feel it initially until I got up and noticed a cut in my pants, then I noticed the blood all over.
    However, put in the face of danger, I think people would stand up and attack the attackers. It's their life at risk. I'm sure some did that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    We are debunking the idea that boxcutters would not be useful in hijacking a plane. All you've got to do is grab a stewardess and hold the knife to her throat.
     
  16. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    Box cutters,like any blade, suckto get cut with. Getting cut sucks. No one in a right state of mind wants to be cut. However, of all the many weapons/tools whith which one can find themselves being cut, the box cutter IS one of the less intimidating. First of all it's commonplace, so your average person knows how to handle one to some extent, and probably has at some point. Second, it's a three-sided blade the shortest side of which is the sharp one, the other two dull. Third, it doesn't have an effective point, and thus isn't an effective stabbing weapon. There's no question box-cutters would be highly intimidating in a violent situation. They pose no threat however to pilots behind locked doors, who have a high degree of control over the environment in which the violence was taking place. I can't speak as to the specifics of the circumstances within each plane, but it is difficult to imagine pilots surrendering control over box cutters.
     
  17. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    The fact that the pilots probably didn't suspect their plane was going to be used as a missile probably played into it as well. Typical hijacking before 9/11 didn't involve crashing the plane, but using the people on board as hostages. The willingness to fight back now after 9/11 is much greater because people know they might die no matter what, where as before you stood a much higher likely hood of living through a hijacking.
     
  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It was just standard operating procedure not to resist hijackers back then. And the doors were not locked.
     
  19. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    The doors to the cockpit were not that formidable prior to 9/11 and as Soulfly pointed out pilots and crew were instructed to cooperate with hijackers prior to 9/11.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_hijacking#Dealing_with_hijackings

     
  20. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Shortly after 9/11, there was an interview with a hijacker that was in prison (I think they may have been involved with one of the PLO hijackings) and she was asked about 9/11 and she was shocked at killing that many innocents and she mentioned that hijacking would NEVER again be a useful tactic.
     
  21. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Passengers have helped restrain unruly passengers many times since 9/11. People don't want to take chances anymore. I think it is going to take a lot more than four or five guys with box cutters to happen again. Not to mention the possibility of air marshals. The deck has been stacked against terrorist conducting hijackings.
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/passenger_restrained_everyone_newark_DMjlzzyA7PAA3on23RKOQL
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/us/oregon-plane-passengers-restrain-unruly-traveler.html?_r=0
    http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/passengers-restrain-man-accused-grabbing-women-united-flight-6144271
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/passenger-open-door-alaska-flight-article-1.1356187
    This conversation reminds me of this scene.
     
  22. My impression is that there was an actual pilot on board amongst the passengers.
    Not necessarily a commercial pilot but someone with some training.
    I have read that before but can't find any source now. Has anyone else heard this?
     
  23. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I've never heard that before.
     
  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I've never heard that. I don't think it would really be an issue though, as they would not know if the pilots were dead, and they figured the alternative was to die anyway.
     
  25. The story was more like the 'pilot' was one of those rushing the cockpit door and if they were able to get in and wrestle control
    of the plane - well he would take over. Or at least stabilize. Probably an amateur pilot. And I would imagine they were thinking
    the worst considering that they knew numerous planes had already been hijacked and crashed. Why keep pilots alive and have to babysit them
    if you are going to kill them anyway....

    Anyway. I read it somewhere but it very well may be bunk.

    edited - yeah. I guess they could have assumed that someone just had a knife or gun
    on the pilot. And they were still alive. And flying the plane. Probably a safe assumption.
     
  26. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    As to the Zacarias Moussaoui box cutter, I don't see what bearing that has on the weapons allegedly used to conduct the hijackings on 9/11. He wasn't involved in the attacks. A picture of his box cutter is about as significant as a picture of any box cutter.

    As far as I know, the single report of box cutters used came from Barbara Olsen in a call to her husband Theodore, an attorney who happened to represent George W. in Bush v Gore, and was solicitor general at the time. That call came from flight 77. I'm not aware of there being any actual evidence of box cutters used on any of the other flights. Can we perhaps debunk the widely and early spread myth that box cutters were the proven hijacking method for each flight? The brief mention of a cardboard cutter from a panicked woman on a panicked flight is, so far as I know, the sole factual basis for this supposition, and yet there's an odd tendency to treat it as simple fact.
     
  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think Moussaoui's box cutter is slightly more relevant than a random box cutter, but yes, we have a very imperfect picture of what actually happened, as all the witnesses are dead.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...you_think_you_know_about_sept_11_.single.html
    Knife or box cutter, I don't really see the difference being that significant. Unless maybe there's a theory that they had inside help on getting the weapons onto the plane.
     
  28. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Leatherman style knives also seem likely:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/01/27/911.commis.knife/
    I have one of them, they come near-razor sharp out of the box, and the blade locks.
     
  29. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    From a forum discussion on that question...
    And the top voted yahoo answer to that question by 'Stop Agenda 21'-

    (Mick, what happened to EX tags?)

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  30. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    The significance lies in acknowledging just how imperfect the picture is. Many aren't aware of that. Rumsfeld himself presented supposition centered around a second-hand account of a statement made by a woman in panic as the facts of matter short days after the attack. It speaks toward an apparent willingness to present a narrative prior to or absent from establishing the facts. In truth we hardly know a thing about what went on in those planes, but arabs with box cutters slashing people up became the answer even before the shock had receded enough for people to start asking questions in earnest.
     
  31. This unfortunately happens all the time. On both sides. Or three sides.......
    I live in Massachusetts and went to college in Boston and Mike Adams and Alex Jones
    were "on it" in a hearbeat to alert us of the 'false-flag'. (The marathon bombing)
    And the mainstream is pumping out what they can get as well.
    But at least there was a semblance of "I hope I get it right.."
    To Jones and Adams it was a knee-jerk reaction. The facts and the story ultimately were irrelevant.

    In actuality we do know alot of what went on in those planes.
    The record is clear.
    Unless you believe that a mother wouldn't know the sound of her own sons voice talking in realtime. To her. In a death scene.

    How do you fake all those realtime conversations???????

    Good question.

    .......beyond all the other evidence..........

    The forensic stuff.

    Questions beyond my means....
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  32. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    Again, so far as I know, the only reference to box cutters, or "cardboard cutters" as they were called, was in the conversation mentioned above. Mike Adams and Alex Jones aren't Government officials of the highest level, in whom the American people invest their trust and security. There's a stark difference between a private citizen insisting on a conspiracy theory and the Secretary of Defense in the aftermath of a grave crisis citing supposition as fact in order to create an emotional narrative with which to manipulate a traumatized community before the facts have even been gathered.
     
  33. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Read my post for other corroborations (I don't know why I couldn't do EX tags).
    There is no definitive final proof, but to claim it's irresponsibly wild supposition with no basis in fact is an extreme and false exaggeration.
     
  34. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    There is not another mention of box cutters in all the statements you quoted.
    You mistake me. The supposition of box cutters isn't wild or irresponsible. It is, however, a supposition, taking a single panicked statement from a single plane and applying to the other flights as a uniform method... Something which your corroborating quotes seem to contradict with the mentions of chemical agents/bomb threats/ect. What I'm saying is that a supposition was used to establish an emotional narrative as fact, by men with clearly manipulative agendas.
     
  35. I agree that this isn't really an issue but I have researched it further and it does appear to have some truth to it.
    I'm not going to bother to throw up quotes or links but it seems from the phones calls made that the pilots
    were moved outside the cockpit and some (or someone) who made calls considered them dead or incapacitated.
    And there was a pilot on board. So I think the plan was to rush the cockpit and try to get the passenger/pilot at the controls.
    Ultimately this is a side issue so I won't bother to put up a bunch of stuff.
     
  36. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I think if the passengers knew what was ahead of them, many would have taken the chance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013