9/11: PNAC Motive and Opportunity as evidence of an inside job

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Thank you very much for that video Jazzy. That is an exceptionally well presented dissertation on a well coined philosophy IMO. If you don't mind my saying, I thought your comment above was not really in the spirit of the message, perhaps a slightly negative interpretation of a positive? Would you agree with what he says though?
I did it to provide a common refuge for both of us. Of course I believe this. I have had the luxury of this bleak, but true philosophy, since retirement in 2002. Before that I would concede my horizons were more limited.

I'm still curious about the way you see this back story. And it was just a gentle gibe.
 
But is it not the case that a CIA asset who disagrees with the actions of their government and who raises those issues at a high level, (only to be arrested and incarcerated for 4 years), and who then goes on to publicise why they disagreed with the actions of their government, qualifies as a legitimate 'whistle blower' under the definition of a whistle blower? Should such a person who has risked life and liberty not be given due regard, public support and an open investigation of the allegations made?

And if the information made public by that whistle blower includes specific foreknowledge of a devastating attack and the government deny knowledge that they had been forewarned about this specific foreknowledge which could likely have averted the attack; should this not be openly investigated and every effort made to get to the truth?

And if a government, willfully falsifies involvement of and manufactures reason to go to war with a foreign power, should this not be thoroughly and openly investigated and the truth ascertained?
Yes to all. A no-brainer. But was she part and party of a PTB conspiracy to attack the towers?
 
Would you elaborate on what you mean to avoid misunderstanding?
Her whole story is about a disagreement with her employers over their actions in Iraq, and the steps they took to cover that up. It happened to coincide with 9-11 and she is quite obviously using this in her self-defense.

It is a "back story". What do you think?
 
Her whole story is about a disagreement with her employers over their actions in Iraq, and the steps they took to cover that up. It happened to coincide with 9-11 and she is quite obviously using this in her self-defense.

It is a "back story". What do you think?

I am sorry if I am being a bit dense here and missing something but I am still struggling with that analysis.

It is straightforward that she had a disagreement with the hierarchy but as I understand it, I would not agree with the take that it 'just happened to coincide with 9/11' but rather that 9/11 and the forewarnings and information gathering and the culpability of Iraq if they failed to provide information which they did not possess; was integral.

'Assets' come in many forms. If you recall, one of the things that really embarrassed the Bush admin re the Wikileaks was that they released documents proving that U.S diplomats had been instructed to spy on other diplomats worldwide which naturally had huge implications on trust re diplomatic relations.

Susan claims to have been a 'back channel':

http://bookpreview.info/back-channel-the-kennedy-years/

Bertie Mac coined the term "Back Channel" and served as a direct communication link between the White House and the Kremlin during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Bertie Mac served under and reported to nine U.S. Presidents
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Apparently an 'intermediary' trusted by both sides to relate information verbatim where necessary. At the very least, to be able to relay information accurately and without embellishment or confusion.

From the video I have seen, she appears very competent in that, although that is obviously a subjective view and I may be wrong.

However, what I find most compelling about her story, apart from the detail and delivery, is that apparently she went through all the right channels, i.e. chain of command and when that did not work, as last resort she contacted her cousin on ten separate occasions, (Andrew H. Card Jr., the White House chief of staff, being the same who informed Bush of the 9/11 attacks whilst he was reading a book to the kids in school) and it was shortly after that, she was arrested under The Patriot Act.

Now my inference from that is; she is not a natural whistle blower nor a publicity seeker but is someone who is desperately trying to do the right thing.

What she really wanted, was and I presume still is for it all to come out in court but that was not allowed to happen.

I do not see that she would make up or exaggerate the 9/11 warnings but I do see that she would be outraged for 9/11 to be used as an excuse for invading Iraq when she knew full well that it was a deception and Iraq posed no threat to the U.S. and was in fact on its knees following the war and the sanctions.

I would suggest that even though she felt strongly that it was wrong to invade Iraq, the fact that she had not gone public with her information even as late as March 11, 2004, when she was arrested, shows that she was still trying to work through channels but refused to back down and stop 'being a nuisance'.

Well that is my take on it, would you agree?
 
Your "so many" is likely a small percentage of the whole. Moreover, that suspicion does not substitute for lack of evidence.

If that were the case, this website would likely not exist


Let me get this straight....OBL issues a religious edict based on the teaching of the Koran justifying the killing of people..and you say there is "nothing to substantiate" the role that religion has played in this? Fascinating. Not sure how to respond to such blatant disregard for the facts. Religion is, in fact, the prime motivating factor- or at least the underlying tenet- in suicide bomber missions.

For record- I did NOT say it was "all" about religion- but to suggest it does not play a major role and or is the prime moral justification used by jihadists is just flat out wrong.

I think people are easily misdirected toward such an evaluation by the constant references to the Holy War or Jihad. But if you look slightly closer, it can be clearly seen that 'Jihad' is used merely as a 'rallying call' to fight an oppressive and murderous, foreign invader.

In an attempt to prevent others from being similarly mislead, I am posting the 2 videos, first televised OBL interview, in which clearly you will see political argument and moral justification are the main tenets, which are then underpinned in a legalistic fashion upon the religious foundations.




Secondly, a very interesting interview with the Taliban and their attempts to reach an understanding over OBL with the U.S.

Also very interesting as to how the Taliban totally wiped out all drug production in Afghanistan in no time at all and how as soon as the U.S CIA get back in there, Afghanistan is immediately back to full production and supplying Americans with 80% of their illegal Opium based drugs!

 
I think people are easily misdirected toward such an evaluation by the constant references to the Holy War or Jihad. But if you look slightly closer, it can be clearly seen that 'Jihad' is used merely as a 'rallying call' to fight an oppressive and murderous, foreign invader.

You are either naive or trollingly obstinate.

Sure, there are the surface realities of the geo-political situation in which OBL and his ilk found themselves. But to attest their actions merely as a reaction to the realpolitik of the day is a shallow, incomplete understanding of the situation.

Jihad is NOT "merely...a rallying call" to fight...it is an expression of the very moral and religious underpinnings that informed his every action. His MORAL JUSTIFICATION for killing came from his RELIGION. His belief that the US had invaded Saudi Arabia and "occupied' it came from his RELIGION. His belief that Muslims should kick the "oppressors" out in every Muslim country and install a caliphate based on Sharia law came from his RELIGION.


"Every Muslim, from the moment they realize the distinction in their hearts, hates American, hates Jews, and hates Israelis. This is a part of our belief and our religion."
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OBL-Al Jazeera interview December 1998, following Kenya and Tanzania embassy attacks


Again- to suggest -as you did- that there "nothing to substantiate" the role that religion has played in this conflict and that it is all a "political" disagreement is shockingly simplistic and ill-informed. I suggest you back off the hubris of saving others from being "mislead" and stick to the facts.



All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."

Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."
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http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
 
You are either naive or trollingly obstinate.

Are you suggesting that anyone who does not accept your evidence as conclusive is naive or trollingly obstinate? So much for debate.


Sure, there are the surface realities of the geo-political situation in which OBL and his ilk found themselves. But to attest their actions merely as a reaction to the realpolitik of the day is a shallow, incomplete understanding of the situation.

Here is the text you ommitted... wonder why?

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter. No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone: First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
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Sounds pretty political to me.

Jihad is NOT "merely...a rallying call" to fight...it is an expression of the very moral and religious underpinnings that informed his every action. His MORAL JUSTIFICATION for killing came from his RELIGION. His belief that the US had invaded Saudi Arabia and "occupied' it came from his RELIGION. His belief that Muslims should kick the "oppressors" out in every Muslim country and install a caliphate based on Sharia law came from his RELIGION.
Islam wants world dominion no doubt, so do the Catholics and many others it is part of their belief system but history tells us that Islam has lived side by side in peace with all faiths for many centuries. It is well documented that Muslims have helped to construct temples and churches of other faiths and vice versa. If you would like me to provide scholarly articles to document this I will.

The point is, it is politically expedient to demonise 'terrorists' as crazed religious zealots thereby marginalising their very real political objection to being killed, pillaged, occupied and enslaved by the military arm of giant corporations.


Again- to suggest -as you did- that there "nothing to substantiate" the role that religion has played in this conflict and that it is all a "political" disagreement is shockingly simplistic and ill-informed. I suggest you back off the hubris of saving others from being "mislead" and stick to the facts.
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I did not say, "that there "nothing to substantiate" the role that religion has played in this conflict", it has definitely played a role, it has been used on both sides as a justification and rallying point but the main point is political. The U.S has boots on the ground in their Countries. How would you feel if they had boots on the ground in your Country and were pillaging it's resources and murdering it's civilians?



http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
 
Your original premise was

Religion does not come into it other than, as is usual, all sides think God is on their side


I guess what you do not appear to understand is that for Islamic fundamentalists there is no separation between the political and religious.

"Every Muslim, from the moment they realize the distinction in their hearts, hates American, hates Jews, and hates Israelis. This is a part of our belief and our religion."
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OBL-Al Jazeera interview December 1998, following Kenya and Tanzania embassy attacks
 

Interesting organization, The Federation of American Scientists - don't be fooled by the name.


http://www.fas.org/about/bio/louie.html

is a link to the potted biography of the chairman of FAS, Gilman Louie.


Louie made his money in computer games, lots of money made stupefying millions of children around the 'developed' world. Then Louie went into venture capitalism with some of that money. Then, in 1999, Louie founded a vc firm on behalf of the CIA, In-Q-Tel. Part of the brief was to 'foster secure communities of interest' for the purpose of intelligence 'information mining'. Sound like anything? Louie, at that time, sat on the board of NVCA (National Venture Capital Assoc - if I recall right) next to a guy called Breyer, who swiftly invested c $13m in a small start up at Stanford (the NSA breeding station) run by a guy called Zuckerberg. Peter Thiel, another Stanfordite (and founder of Paypal), gave Zuckerberg his first 500k (I think - again, from memory).

There's a couple of interesting intros there - and here's a snippet from that potted bio

In 2006, Gilman was presented with the Directors Award by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency for his service in creating In-Q-Tel and providing service to the intelligence community.
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Mick will likely know a fair bit more than I do about Louie - he also made his living from video games once upon a time. And now he runs a secure community of interest. Funny old world, eh?
 
Interesting organization, The Federation of American Scientists - don't be fooled by the name.


http://www.fas.org/about/bio/louie.html

is a link to the potted biography of the chairman of FAS, Gilman Louie.


Louie made his money in computer games, lots of money made stupefying millions of children around the 'developed' world. Then Louie went into venture capitalism with some of that money. Then, in 1999, Louie founded a vc firm on behalf of the CIA, In-Q-Tel. Part of the brief was to 'foster secure communities of interest' for the purpose of intelligence 'information mining'. Sound like anything? Louie, at that time, sat on the board of NVCA (National Venture Capital Assoc - if I recall right) next to a guy called Breyer, who swiftly invested c $13m in a small start up at Stanford (the NSA breeding station) run by a guy called Zuckerberg. Peter Thiel, another Stanfordite (and founder of Paypal), gave Zuckerberg his first 500k (I think - again, from memory).

There's a couple of interesting intros there - and here's a snippet from that potted bio

In 2006, Gilman was presented with the Directors Award by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency for his service in creating In-Q-Tel and providing service to the intelligence community.
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Mick will likely know a fair bit more than I do about Louie - he also made his living from video games once upon a time. And now he runs a secure community of interest. Funny old world, eh?

Yes very interesting that. I failed to make the connection myself, so thanks for pointing it out. They seem well motivated in the 'intelligence field' and put out quite a lot of 'information'.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm
 
It is straightforward that she had a disagreement with the hierarchy but as I understand it, I would not agree with the take that it 'just happened to coincide with 9/11' but rather that 9/11 and the forewarnings and information gathering and the culpability of Iraq if they failed to provide information which they did not possess; was integral.
That's what I don't see. OBL was never in, nor ever had anything to do with, Iraq. Her involvement with Iraq had nothing to do with OBL. There is no link of any sort between them.
If she picked up on an attack on the WTC it was obviously not in the normal course of her business.

Well that is my take on it, would you agree?
I have the same "take" as you. No, I don't agree. It seems she's using 9-11 to make her ex-employers sweat.
 
That's what I don't see. OBL was never in, nor ever had anything to do with, Iraq. Her involvement with Iraq had nothing to do with OBL. There is no link of any sort between them.
If she picked up on an attack on the WTC it was obviously not in the normal course of her business.

From her video testimony, she states 'Nov 2000, there was a loose agreement for weapons inspections.

Feb 2001, FBI invited to Iraq to look into terrorists and make arrests.

April 2001, she was told by CIA of a plot to hijack airplanes and fly them into WTC and to ask the Iraqis if they knew anything about it and inform them that if they did not supply information and the event happened, they would be invaded'.

That is her connection to 9/11 and therefore OBL

I have the same "take" as you. No, I don't agree. It seems she's using 9-11 to make her ex-employers sweat.
She does not seem able to 'make her employers sweat' as they seem to be so confident in their immunity that she is an irrelevance to them.

Hypothetically, what would you have done if you were in the position which she describes herself in and found it a matter of conscience?
 
I think this is relevant, the old fashioned 'you are mad' ploy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling_(film)

Changeling is a 2008 American drama film directed by Clint Eastwood and written by J. Michael Straczynski. Based on real-life events in 1928 Los Angeles,

After hearing about the case from a contact at Los Angeles City Hall, Straczynski spent a year researching the historical record. He said he drew 95% of the script from around 6,000 pages of documentation.
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Christine son goes missing and later the police 'find him and return him to her.

After Christine confronts Jones with physical discrepancies between "Walter" and her son, Jones arranges for a medical doctor to visit her.
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The debunking...

He tells Christine that "Walter" is shorter than before his disappearance because trauma has shrunk his spine, and that the person who took Walter had him circumcised. Briegleb tells Christine it was planted by police to discredit her. Walter's teacher and dentist give Christine signed letters confirming "Walter" is an impostor. Christine tells her story to the press; as a result, Jones sends her to Los Angeles County Hospital's "psychopathic ward". She befriends inmate Carol Dexter (Ryan), who tells Christine she is one of several women who were sent there for challenging police authority. Dr. Steele (Denis O'Hare) deems Christine delusional and forces her to take mood-regulating pills. Steele says he will release Christine if she admits she was mistaken about "Walter"; she refuses.
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http://askville.amazon.com/Christine-Collins-movie-based-life/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=9836521

Until three weeks later, when Collins brought “Walter” back, insisting that, no matter what anyone said, this child wasn’t hers. Unaccustomed to having their actions questioned by anyone, let alone a woman, Captain Jones—with the tacit approval of Chief Davis—subjected Collins to slander and committed her to the County psychopathic ward as a patient, instead of admitting the mistake of returning the wrong boy. Collins would be forced to spend five harrowing days in the psychiatric ward, housed against her will due to a “Code 12”—a term that referred to a difficult or inconvenient person, usually a woman, jailed or committed to the local psychopathic ward without a warrant or any legal due process.
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Just because one person was not insane does not mean nobody is.

Just because people have been deliberately and falsely accused of insanity does not mean all accusations of insanity are false.
 
Mick will likely know a fair bit more than I do about Louie - he also made his living from video games once upon a time. And now he runs a secure community of interest. Funny old world, eh?

I'm not familiar with him, I was in the UK when he was making his games in the US, and there was not a lot of mingling back in pre-internet day. I moved here in 1993.

You think the FAS is some kind of CIA propaganda thing? I don't think I've heard of the FAS before either, not that I remember anyway.
 
April 2001, she was told by CIA of a plot to hijack airplanes and fly them into WTC and to ask the Iraqis if they knew anything about it and inform them that if they did not supply information and the event happened, they would be invaded'. That is her connection to 9/11.
If her employers were party to such a conspiracy, then including her in the circle would reduce their secrecy, would it not?

Hypothetically, what would you have done if you were in the position which she describes herself in and found it a matter of conscience?
I would have left.

It really is very hypothetical because I wouldn't have joined in the first place.
 
If her employers were party to such a conspiracy, then including her in the circle would reduce their secrecy, would it not?

Doesn't look like much of a secret in the community. Looks like it may have been pretty difficult for anyone associated with the CIA, not to know about the warnings.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/09/bush-administration-ignored-september-11-warnings.html

"There were more than 40 intelligence articles in the PDBS [Presidential Daily Briefings] from January 21 to September 11 that related to Bin Laden." In a section of the report called "The Drumbeat Begins," the Commission highlights a late June briefing that alerts to the "high probability of near-term 'spectacular' terrorist attacks resulting in numerous casualties … including a 'severe blow' against U.S. and Israeli 'interests' during the next two weeks." But whereas the Commission report describes the threat of attacks worldwide, Eichenwald's exclusive intel specifically cites a domestic threat, one with "dramatic consequences."
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Doesn't look like much of a secret in the community. Looks like it may have been pretty difficult for anyone associated with the CIA, not to know about the warnings.
So it wasn't part of her brief or duties, yet somehow it is part of her story.
 
Just because people have been deliberately and falsely accused of insanity does not mean all accusations of insanity are false.

It doesn't mean that a 'diagnosis of borderline psychological disorder', made by a biased party with high stakes motive is correct or relevant either.

Precedents, and there have been many, are important... it puts it in the 'game plan' as a utility.

Like I said, were Susan Lindauer to be giving evidence about virtually anything else that she witnessed, her testimony would carry the same weight as yours or mine.

The debunking of Christine Collin's claim that the child was not her son, demonstrates the lengths people with vested interests will go to and also demonstrates the scope that people with power may employ.

Had she not had major support and had the boy not admitted he was coached, how could she have 'proved', (in that era), the 'scientific' establishment debunkers wrong?
 
So it wasn't part of her brief or duties, yet somehow it is part of her story.

Ah... the old cat and mouse game lol.

So she is debunked if she was 'in the loop' and debunked if she wasn't... sweet, (but flawed), logic:)
 
Aaron Russo had a solid background and was well regarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Russo

Russo became involved in political issues in the early-1990s when he produced and starred in the documentary entitled Mad As Hell in which he criticized the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the federal government's War on Drugs, the concept of a National Identity Card, and government regulation of alternative medicine.[citation needed]​

In 1998, Russo took his political interests to a higher level, running for governor of the state of Nevada as a Republican. Placing second in the Republican primary with 26% of the vote to candidate Kenny Guinn, Russo later endorsed the Democratic nominee, then-Las Vegas mayor Jan Laverty Jones, who would eventually lose to Republican nominee Kenny Guinn.[citation needed]​ Russo was planning to run again for Nevada governor in 2002 as either an independent or Libertarian but was sidelined by cancer.
In January 2004, Russo declared his candidacy for the President of the United States initially as an independent but then as a Libertarian. At the Libertarian National Convention in May 2004, Russo received 258 votes to Michael Badnarik's 256 votes and Gary Nolan's 246 votes, short of the majority required to receive the presidential nomination. Russo would eventually lose the nomination on the convention's third and final ballot to Badnarik by a vote of 423-344
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I think his testimony regarding forewarning of 9/11, the creation of an 'ongoing enemy where you cannot define a winner' and troops hunting the caves of Bora Bora is compelling.

I think it matters little that Christopher Rockefeller was not who he appeared to be. Con man or not, Christopher Rockefeller, (Christophe Thierry Rocancourt), mixed with the elite and was so successful that he was fully accepted for a time in those circles.

Making his way to the United States, Rocancourt used at least a dozen aliases. He got the rich and powerful to invest in his schemes, he told Dateline, by tapping into their greed. He convinced them that he, too, was rich by paying for their lavish dinners in cash. In Los Angeles, he pretended to be a movie producer, ex-boxing champion or venture capitalist. He dropped names like "his mother" Sophia Loren or "his uncles" Oscar de la Renta and Dino De Laurentiis and was associated with various celebrities. He married Playboy model Pia Reyes; they had a son, Zeus. He lived for a time with Mickey Rourke and apparently convinced actor Jean-Claude Van Damme to produce his next movie.
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Is it then, merely coincidence that what he told Aaron Russo, came true... I think not.

In order to discount it, one would have to impugn Aaron Russo's integrity and I find no evidence to justify that.




http://truth11.com/2011/04/28/true-patriot-and-filmmaker-aaron-russo-rockerfeller-complicity-in-911/

True patriot and filmmaker Aaron Russo: One people, one movement, freedom for all, his legacy lives on with RTR Gary Franchi
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You've link to a wiki. page that is lacking in sources as evidence of this chap's solid background?

What if I told you I was also at at the meeting with Russo and Rockefeller? Would you believe that?

The guy sounds like a fraud. A quick google turns up this NYT article from 2006 which contains some interesting statements.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/movies/31russ.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

Aaron Russo, the producer of films like “Trading Places” and “The Rose,” promotes his new film, “America: From Freedom to Fascism,” which opened Friday, as having had its international premiere before a packed audience “during the Cannes Film Festival.”


The film was not on the program at Cannes, however, not even for screenings made under the festival’s aegis without being in the awards competition. Mr. Russo, the film’s director, writer and producer, just set up an inflatable screen on a beach. Photographs posted at one of Mr. Russo’s Web sites depict an audience of fewer than 50 people spread out on a platform on the sand.

Sounds a little dishonest to me, a ploy to use "Cannes Film Festival" in the film's promotion.


The film’s appeal, Mr. Russo said during a phone interview last week, is not left or right, but concentrated among those who see the United States evolving into a police state ruled by an oligarchy that has tricked Americans into paying taxes.


Not mentioned in the film is that Mr. Russo has more than $2 million of tax liens filed against him by the Internal Revenue Service, California and New York for unpaid federal and state taxes. Mr. Russo declined to discuss the liens, saying they were not relevant to his film.

I wouldn't say this is indicative of a solid or well respected background either.

You say "In order to discount it, one would have to impugn Aaron Russo's integrity and I find no evidence to justify that" but it doesn't appear to be hard to challenge it at all.
 
You've link to a wiki. page that is lacking in sources as evidence of this chap's solid background?

What if I told you I was also at at the meeting with Russo and Rockefeller? Would you believe that?
If you told your story as a terminal cancer patient with a few months to live . . . I would give you the benefit of the doubt. . . .
 
You've link to a wiki. page that is lacking in sources as evidence of this chap's solid background?

What if I told you I was also at at the meeting with Russo and Rockefeller? Would you believe that?

The guy sounds like a fraud.

The film was not on the program at Cannes, however, not even for screenings made under the festival’s aegis without being in the awards competition. Mr. Russo, the film’s director, writer and producer, just set up an inflatable screen on a beach. Photographs posted at one of Mr. Russo’s Web sites depict an audience of fewer than 50 people spread out on a platform on the sand.

Sounds like marketing of a film to me.... Think I could find at least 100 similar instances of film marketing.

On the other hand, this is what I would call dishonest. Or perhaps it is just 'marketing' for a war!



Cheyne is someone who you feel is truthful and honest is he?

Or Maybe Blair was honest and upstanding in your opinion?



Is this 'reliable, honest testimony'?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...q-inquiry-day-of-regret-day-of-reckoning.html

Blair talking to the Chilcot committee 'The road to regime change was directly after 9/11'

Exhibit A is a personal minute written by Blair to his chief of staff on March 17, 2002. In it, the Prime Minister wrote that “the immediate WMD problems [posed by Iraq] don’t seem obviously worse than three years ago. So we have to re-order our story and message.”

Only a few months later, at the launch of the famous dossier, Blair told Parliament that Iraq’s WMD programme was “growing”. He claimed in the dossier’s foreword that he was “increasingly alarmed” by the “progress” that Saddam Hussein had made on “building up” his WMD capability. The secret minute flatly contradicts that, going to the heart of the “sexing-up” charge against Mr Blair.


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You expressed concern with the validation of the Wiki page... what parts concern you?
 
Cheyney and Blair? I've never expressed support for them on here, but I understand your point your're getting at.

Wiki page, due to there being no sources for the bulk of the text on there.

My point though, is that I dispute the 'well regarded' and 'solid background' as you stated.
 
Cheyney and Blair? I've never expressed support for them on here, but I understand your point your're getting at.

Wiki page, due to there being no sources for the bulk of the text on there.

My point though, is that I dispute the 'well regarded' and 'solid background' as you stated.

I checked out the stuff that I quoted, i.e. running for Governor and Presidential nomination... seems legit and lets face it... would you or I or anyone here have sufficient standing for such an endeavor?
 
OK.

But regarding his integrity, I think that's safely in doubt, no?

On what basis? That he hyped a film for advertising purposes. It was still fundamentally true... i.e it showed at Cannes and the people liked it.

I think his integrity is superior to Bush and the administration and also superior to many other presidents and presidential hopefuls.

Do you think he would make up such a conversation with Christopher Rockefeller?

Why would he do such a thing?

Do you not think that Blair, Bush, Cheyne etc statements add credence to the claims made by many i.e. that it was all about oil and regime change and securing power bases in the Middle East?
 
Eleven years on and they are still hiding the truth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/16/chilcot-report-iraq-delayed-evidence

16 July 2012 Fierce opposition in Whitehall to the disclosure of key documents relating to the invasion of Iraq, notably records of discussions between Tony Blair and George Bush, has meant the Chilcot inquiry will not now be able to publish its report for well over a year.

Sir John Chilcot has made it clear in a letter to David Cameron that he and his fellow panel members are deeply frustrated by Whitehall's refusal to release papers, including those that reveal which ministers, legal advisers and officials were excluded from discussions on military action. The papers still kept secret include those relating to MI6 and the government's electronic eavesdropping centre, GCHQ.
The inquiry panel has seen the classified documents in dispute but is being prevented from publishing them.

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Whistle blowers?

http://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20100305_911_whistleblowers.htm

When losing a discussion on the facts of 9/11, a so-called 9/11 "debunker" will often rely on an old canard to "prove" that 9/11 could not have been an inside job: "So many people want their quarter hour of fame that even the Men in Black couldn't squelch the squealers from spilling the beans," write self-satisfied defenders of the government story. According to the logic of this argument, if there are no 9/11 whistleblowers then 9/11 was not an inside job.

So what if there are 9/11 whistleblowers? What if these whistleblowers come from every level of government and private industry, individuals who have even had their cases vindicated by internal government reports? As you are about to see, there are numerous such whistleblowers and each one is a thorn in the side of those who want to pretend that the 9/11 Commission represents the sum total of knowledge on the 9/11 attacks.
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9/11 is perhaps best exposed by the commissioners themselves, 6 out of 10 of whom have questioned the commission and its conclusions personally
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Just for starters

 
And whilst we are discussing integrity and believability...

http://georgewashington.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/more-evidence-of-obstruction-of-justice.html
[h=2]Thursday, December 06, 2007[/h]
[h=3]More Evidence of Obstruction of Justice in 9/11 Investigation[/h] By now you've heard that the CIA destroyed videotapes of interrogations of alleged Al Qaeda members. The interesting part of this story is that the 9/11 Commission claimed that it obtained most of its information about the attacks from these interrogations (and then only indirectly as reported by the military to the Commission; the Commission never met the alleged detainees, was not allowed to submit questions to them directly, nor was it allowed to question the alleged interrogators to assess their credibility).

The New York Times confirms that the government swore that it had turned over all of the relevant material regarding the statements of the people being interrogated:
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If tapes were destroyed, he said, “it’s a big deal, it’s a very big deal,” because it could amount to obstruction of justice to withhold evidence being sought in criminal or fact-finding investigations.
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The tape of interviews of air traffic controllers on-duty on 9/11 was intentionally destroyed by crushing the cassette by hand, cutting the tape into little pieces, and then dropping the pieces in different trash cans around the building
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Strange how Susan Landauer was unable to produce any back up evidence of her claims... very suspicious that she cannot?
 
I guess what you do not appear to understand is that for Islamic fundamentalists there is no separation between the political and religious.

"Every Muslim, from the moment they realize the distinction in their hearts, hates American, hates Jews, and hates Israelis. This is a part of our belief and our religion."
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OBL-Al Jazeera interview December 1998, following Kenya and Tanzania embassy attacks

I guess it is not only me that doesn't seem to understand. Seems like the current incumbents do not agree with your statements either. Abdul Hakim Belhadj is now an ex terrorist and back in the fold. Very Orwellian or simply pragmatic?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7944e4fc-d7dd-11e0-a5d9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2J6qMqnzR

A Libyan rebel commander once deemed a terror suspect by the US and Britain has been put in charge of uniting the disparate militia that are now maintaining security in Tripoli in the absence of a functioning government, according to politicians and soldiers on the ground.

Abdul Hakim Belhadj, chairman of the capital’s military council and a significant figure in the revolution, was a former leader of an armed Islamist group in Libya that was accused of having ties to al-Qaeda. He has come under intense scrutiny since the emergence of secret documents suggesting he was captured more than seven years ago by the US with British complicity and delivered into the hands of Muammer Gaddafi’s repressive regime
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But Mr Mukhtar said he had been impressed by Mr Belhadj while working with him over the past three months, adding that it would be “completely false” to allege he was an extremist. Mr Belhadj was a “team leader” with a “humble personality” who had an important job in uniting the groups of fighters from all over the country who have daubed their home place-names with pride over areas they have liberated.
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I guess it is not only me that doesn't seem to understand. Seems like the current incumbents do not agree with your statements either.

No offense, Oxy...but your random anecdote bears no evidence as to the supposed lack of influence religion has on Islamic extremists.

Terrorists come in many shapes and sizes; nationalists, secular, religious etc...

For Islamic extremists, their reactions to the political and economic realities of their world are shaped in large part by their religious beliefs. They view indiscriminate violence not only as morally justified based on their interpretations of the Koran, but also as necessary to attain their goals. Religion is a legitimizing force for such violence.

There is a growing body of study on the role religion plays in terrorism and some studies have shown that terrorism that is rooted in religious dogma tends to be more violent.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2007/P7834.pdf

religious terrorists differ in their constituencies. Whereas secular terrorists aim to send a message to the general public or government, religious terrorists have no other constituency but themselves and their belief in a higher power. Thus, the restraints on secular groups, wishing to appeal for the support of a constituency, are not relevant to the religious terrorist....this leads to a sanctioning of almost limitless violence and goes far to explain the increased lethality of these groups today.
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Religion plays a fundamental role in the beliefs and actions of Islamic terrorists.

Thats not "demonizing" Islam or all muslims or the country they live in.

Its simply acknowledging the reality of the situation.
 
http://johnpilger.com/articles/history-is-the-enemy-as-brilliant-psy-ops-become-the-news

History is the enemy as 'brilliant' psy-ops become the news

21 June 2012

Arriving in a village in southern Vietnam, I caught sight of two children who bore witness to the longest war of the 20th century. Their terrible deformities were familiar. All along the Mekong river, where the forests were petrified and silent, small human mutations lived as best they could.
Today, at the Tu Du paediatrics hospital in Saigon, a former operating theatre is known as the "collection room" and, unofficially, as the "room of horrors". It has shelves of large bottles containing grotesque foetuses. During its invasion of Vietnam, the United States sprayed a defoliant herbicide on vegetation and villages to deny "cover to the enemy". This was Agent Orange, which contained dioxin, poisons of such power that they cause foetal death, miscarriage, chromosomal damage and cancer.
In 1970, a US Senate report revealed that "the US has dumped [on South Vietnam] a quantity of toxic chemical amounting to six pounds per head of population, including woman and children". The code-name for this weapon of mass destruction, Operation Hades, was changed to the friendlier Operation Ranch Hand. Today, an estimated 4.8 million victims of Agent Orange are children.
Len Aldis, secretary of the Britain-Vietnam Friendship Society, recently returned from Vietnam with a letter for the International Olympic Committee from the Vietnam Women's Union. The union's president, Nguyen Thi Thanh Hoa, described "the severe congenital deformities [caused by Agent Orange] from generation to generation". She asked the IOC to reconsider its decision to accept sponsorship of the London Olympics from the Dow Chemical Corporation, which was one of the companies that manufactured the poison and has refused to compensate its victims.
Aldis hand-delivered the letter to the office of Lord Coe, chairman of the London Organising Committee. He has had no reply. When Amnesty International pointed out that in 2001 Dow Chemical acquired "the company responsible for the Bhopal gas leak [in India in 1984] which killed 7,000 to 10,000 people immediately and 15,000 in the following twenty years", David Cameron described Dow as a "reputable company". Cheers, then, as the TV cameras pan across the £7 million decorative wrap that sheathes the Olympic stadium: the product of a 10-year "deal" between the IOC and such a reputable destroyer.
History is buried with the dead and deformed of Vietnam and Bhopal. And history is the new enemy. On 28 May, President Obama launched a campaign to falsify the history of the war in Vietnam. To Obama, there was no Agent Orange, no free fire zones, no turkey shoots, no cover-ups of massacres, no rampant racism, no suicides (as many Americans took their own lives as died in the war), no defeat by a resistance army drawn from an impoverished society. It was, said Mr. Hopey Changey, "one of the most extraordinary stories of bravery and integrity in the annals of [US] military history".

The following day, the New York Times published a long article documenting how Obama personally selects the victims of his drone attacks across the world. He does this on "terror Tuesdays" when he browses through mug shots on a "kill list", some of them teenagers, including "a girl who looked even younger than her 17 years". Many are unknown or simply of military age. Guided by "pilots" sitting in front of computer screens in Las Vegas, the drones fire Hellfire missiles that suck the air out of lungs and blow people to bits. Last September, Obama killed a US citizen, Anwar al-Awlaki, purely on the basis of hearsay that he was inciting terrorism. "This one is easy," he is quoted by aides as saying as he signed the man's death warrant. On 6 June, a drone killed 18 people in a village in Afghanistan, including women, children and the elderly who were celebrating a wedding.

The New York Times article was not a leak or an expose. It was a piece of PR designed by the Obama administration to show what a tough guy the 'commander-in-chief' can be in an election year. If re-elected, Brand Obama will continue serving the wealthy, pursuing truth-tellers, threatening countries, spreading computer viruses and murdering people every Tuesday.

The threats against Syria, co-ordinated in Washington and London, scale new peaks of hypocrisy. Contrary to the raw propaganda presented as news, the investigative journalism of the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung identifies those responsible for the massacre in Houla as the 'rebels' backed by Obama and Cameron. The paper's sources include the rebels themselves. This has not been completely ignored in Britain. Writing in his personal blog, ever so quietly, Jon Williams, the BBC world news editor, effectively dishes his own 'coverage', citing western officials who describe the 'psy-ops' operation against Syria as 'brilliant'. As brilliant as the destruction of Libya, and Iraq, and Afghanistan.

And as brilliant as the psy-ops of the Guardian's latest promotion of Alastair Campbell, the chief collaborator of Tony Blair in the criminal invasion of Iraq. In his "diaries", Campbell tries to splash Iraqi blood on the demon Murdoch. There is plenty to drench them all. But recognition that the respectable, liberal, Blair-fawning media was a vital accessory to such an epic crime is omitted and remains a singular test of intellectual and moral honesty in Britain.

How much longer must we subject ourselves to such an "invisible government"? This term for insidious propaganda, first used by Edward Bernays, the nephew of Sigmund Freud and inventor of modern public relations, has never been more apt. "False reality" requires historical amnesia, lying by omission and the transfer of significance to the insignificant. In this way, political systems promising security and social justice have been replaced by piracy, "austerity" and "perpetual war": an extremism dedicated to the overthrow of democracy. Applied to an individual, this would identify a psychopath. Why do we accept it?


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What's a 'terrorist'?

Same standards must be applied to all. Maybe the distinction is one of professionalism, or maybe how many human beings killed in 'the cause'? By those measures, USukisNato are way ahead of the curve. From Guatemala to Chile to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, now Syria, Mali, Yemen, Pakistan - Iran, coming to a theatre of war near you (to name but a few).....millons upon millions have died for the 'cause' of US imperialism; millions more displaced, millions more dispossessed, millions more with their environment poisoned, millions more suffering mental illness.... Some Americans need to read up on their own history before they start blaming other people for 'terrorism'. Shocking ignorance of the 'reality'.
 
http://johnpilger.com/articles/history-is-the-enemy-as-brilliant-psy-ops-become-the-news

Writing in his personal blog, ever so quietly, Jon Williams, the BBC world news editor, effectively dishes his own 'coverage', citing western officials who describe the 'psy-ops' operation against Syria as 'brilliant'.
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I don't entirely disagree with the thrust of the argument, but that's some ridiculous spin there. What did Jon Williams actually say:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2012/06/reporting_conflict_in_syria.html

Given the difficulties of reporting inside Syria, video filed by the opposition on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube may provide some insight into the story on the ground. But stories are never black and white - often shades of grey. Those opposed to President Assad have an agenda. One senior Western official went as far as to describe their YouTube communications strategy as "brilliant". But he also likened it to so-called "psy-ops", brainwashing techniques used by the US and other military to convince people of things that may not necessarily be true.
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Just that reporting on Syria is hard, because both sides put out propaganda. Yet Pilger practically makes it sound like Western officials are waging a psy-ops operation, when what is being discussed is the the YouTube videos of the Syrian opposition.
 
If you told your story as a terminal cancer patient with a few months to live . . . I would give you the benefit of the doubt. . . .

Which raises the point - why no deathbed confessions? Lots of people have died over the years, why don't we have more conspiracies being revealed?
 
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